Guy Michetti
@guy-michetti
@guy-michetti
What Makes A Song Great?
<p>I recently got an email from "TAXI" and I thought it was going to be about signing up with them, but it wasn't.</p>
<p>It was all about writing a great song. So I just thought I'd ask all of you here at Mix, what makes a song great? How would you try to write a great song? Have you heard a indie artist who wrote a great song and why would you say it was great?</p>
<p>I was just reading a book called "Tunesmith" by Jimmy Webb and have been podering how to better my craft and exactly how elusive is that great song?</p>
<p> </p>
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I was born, I will try to live well, and I will die with the wonder that I was here at all.
And I'll try to write some music that may last longer then I...
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Brian,
I'll check out Pat Pattison.
I really love to talk about form in a song, but what I really love is to explore how you can break form sometimes. That can happen subconsciously as you are writing, but I find that sometimes I look at something that I have a rough draft of and say hey this breaks form, but does it work? So let me also agree with you that it is very much a craft at times. And I've done that with every component of a song and it is really tough when you're trying to craft a portion of the melody, at least that's one part of a song that takes the most time for me, if it has not come out whole from the beginning. I hate when I have to work on inspiration! And so, how in tar-nation can I tell if it is a great song???
So a great song has many components that Dazed and Reaper have already mentioned, and to me, there has to be some quality of timelessness about it to make it a really great song. However, to make that great song popular or give it a wider audience, you have to work on getting it to a someone who believes that it is a great song, and then has the ability to promote it to test that theory on the masses. And that takes faith in your work, perseverance, timing and a good deal of luck. Remember that some great art is not recognized during the life time of the artist as well, so there is that! :>
Originality is key.(IMO) the bizz is SO saturated with the likeness of other's, to actually come up with "greatness" is in anyone's grasp....so long as they let go everything they have held onto (in regards to techique or stylised songwriting)...a different approch...a different angle...a wrong note in a perfectly good song...
Unlike any other. uniqueness makes a great song.
Thinking way outside the box is difficult for some in regards to songwriting, But IT (IMO) is the answer.
I thought LeXz's toon "can't turn my back on me" was one of the best written toons i have ever come across...and yes MR B. "trouble" is another lyrical winner!
A good read.:)
Sorry, not meaning to talk out of turn, but just a couple of points.
Downloaded Kathy's Song and agree entirely, Guy.
Secondly, Lex recently posted a song called "Trouble" that I think is a case in point. I'd played it through 3 or 4 times and loved it. I then realised it's basically an A A solo A A song. You couldn't get a more basic form than that. Yet it works and it does so for a number of reasons in my view. Firstly, each A section has notional verse/chorus (and maybe bridge) within it, so it doesn't ever seem repetitive or boring. Secondly, the lyrics are just right and the singer has used some really clever techniques to lead one verse into the next without a sense of closure.
It's a great song.
Cheers
Brian
Damn, guy. I know Kathy's Song but I can't remember it. When you first mentioned it I was thinking of April Come She Will, but that's not right. I'll have to download a version from itunes to refresh my memory.
I will have a look out for Jimmy Webb's book guy. He was out here recently at a songwriting convention, but unfortunately work prevented me from attending his talk. From all reports it was very illuminating.
At the risk of being seen as overselling Pat Pattison, one thing that really impressed me at both the seminars of his that I went to, was that he was not talking writing to a formula (although he has his views as to the most and least potent forms of song structure). What he was trying to instill was utlising tools that will be pass on the emotion of the song to the listener (for example, he suggested that Six O'Clock Swill be changed from the third person to the second person....simple but effective). I think it's that real sense of getting some emotional bond with a song that leads to the subjective element that you're talking about.
By the way, if Dazed or any other admin come in, is there some way of preserving this blog on the front page. I think it's something that a lot of members would have worthwhile imput for.
Off to download Cathy's Song.
Cheers
Brian
I'm going to quote just a portion at the end of the email from Michael from Taxi. The title of the email was:
'Sell' Your Music? How the NEW Music Industry will help you...
I would think that this may be posted on the their web site, here's the quote:
"The best thing you can do to ensure your place in the "new" music industry is to write GREAT songs. Not good songs. Good ain't good enough, no matter what form the new music business takes.
Why do you think we all still love the Motown classics, the Beatles, Zeppelin and the Stones? Because their songs are still GREAT. Great sells itself. Always has. Always will.
Talk to you soon,
Michael"
By the way Brian, Jimmy Webb's book TuneSmith is worth its weight in gold. I'm starting on my second go through the book.
Hey Jake,
Great to see you too brother!
Thanks for responding guys. I brought this up for a number of reasons that I hope to explore but the initial one was to respond to what the email from Taxi seemed to imply, and that is, as someone who is running a business in trying to pitch songs, one thing are looking for are 'hits', i.e. a great song is one that makes money. And if those who are screening the songs that are being sent to places like TAXI, they have to have some sense of what 'they' think is a great song. In other words, I don't believe that you can escape the subjective nature of this whole she-bang.
There are a lot songs that are on the radio that are great songs, but I think this is beyond dispute, the overwhelming majority of songs that get airplay are NOT great songs. So why are they on the radio? Someone, maybe someone at a place like taxi, thought that they were. Maybe they didn't even think great, just good.
So why the emphasis on a great song? There are lots and lots of great songs that were never hits. (Again what I mean by hits is that these are songs that made money. Lots of it!) Of course, there are some big hits that made lots of money that I would never in my wildest dreams think were great songs, yet some did, again subjectivity is king. I'd say that and a bit of luck.
I'm putting on the hat of the business guy, or the guy or gal we may end up submitting a song to pitch that 'we' think is great, but can we every divorce ourselves from ourselves, or become the other person hearing the song as something new, since we are the 'creators'? I don't think it's possible, so around and around we go.
I think a part of that email from TAXI was an attempt to get the songwriters who submit to TAXI to reassess their product to submit the best song based what they are looking for at the time. That's hard to do when it's just you, and so places like MIX are a way to say hey, is this thing I've done any good? Granted, we can't always take the reviews at face value, and so we have to be somewhat critical of both the review and what we actually think of the song.
I find this to be all so pitifully painful to go through myself and for the lack of any objective methodology, I'll think I'll just go with my gut thank you very much. And I have done some training on my gut so it isn't as reflexive a response as one might think.
I agree with all of your thoughts here and will submit what I think is a great song that was never a hit.. "Kathy's Song" by Paul Simon.
A great song I think, is always going to be the ear of the beholder to a greater or less extent, and I for one don't think anything written by Mozart would ever get a forward by Taxi, and I consider 99.9% of everything Wolfgang wrote to be beyond great! Of course, that's just my gut talking. Sorry to go and on here, but this is just, hopefully my initial volley into all of this because something in my gut is a bit agitated.
all the best,
guy
PS I've said this before at the old mix but it's worth repeating. A music teacher who I had great respect for in High School said while discussing musical theory, "I can define a melody for you, but I can't tell you what a great melody is except to say that a great melody will make money."
Interesting topic, Guy. I've done a couple of recent sessions with Pat Pattison, head of the songwriting school at Berklee which have changed my views somewhat. I've also spoken at length with Lex on the topic via email. One thing that I have come to the realisation about is that, in my mind, songwriting is more craft than art. I'm not saying that to diminish in any way the talent needed to write songs. We all have melodies floating through our heads at various times of the day. We hear words and phrases that appeal to us as potential songs. Others hear those melodies and words and phrases but they either hear them differently or don't have the urge to turn them into a song. It's that sense of craft, being able to turn an ordinary experience into something completely different.
Most of us know a limited number of chords, and many "great" songs repeat chord progressions that have previously been used. So to me a great song involves a combination of melody and lyric which makes the individual elements which are available to all, cohere into a unique piece of work. I distinguish between a "great song" and a song that grabs me. There are a lot of songs that I really enjoy that I would not consider to be great. By the same token, there are a lot of songs that I consider "great" that are not necessarily my personal cup of tea. Your reference to Jimmy Webb is a case in point. Out in Australia we really only got to know Jimmy Webb through Macarthur Park and Glen Campbell. Glen Campbell, although talented, is not someone whose music I normally would listen to. But I still consider "Witchita Lineman", "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" and others to be wonderful examples of songwriting.
To me, what is important is the "emotive" quality of a song. It has to touch me personally. And there are particular skills necessary to fully bring out the emotion in tracks. I was planning to release an acoustic CD of my original material, but realise after the most recent session with Pat that the way I've recorded them, and particularly some of my phrasing of the lyrics, is not the best way to bring out the emotion. So I'm in the middle of a big rewrite. Nothing massive in any of the songs, but just some subtle and simple changes that will hopefully bring out the message more emotively.
And therein lies the rub, as I see it. A lot of us suffer from the dichotomy of being performers and writers. Sometimes the role of performer can get in the way of improving the writing. I know that on a lot of occasions I use the "deadline" approach to lyric writing. I will have a song almost finished and leave it till I'm actually in the studio to actually complete. So far something has always come to me, but it's not always the best. As a performer, I'm relieved to have the song completed and am then reluctant to put on my songwriter's hat to really polish it off properly.
I personally now believe that a "great" song won't just come to you by inspiration. The makings of a "great song" may, but realistically I believe that a "great song" requires lots of hard work, discrimination and fearless editing, working on appropriate phrasing of lyrics, tinkering with the melody etc etc.
Just my tuppence worth. I'll keep an eye on this blog because I think it's an incredibly interesting topic.
Cheers
Brian
Hey Guy
I agree with Rick. What makes a great song to me is this...
1. You have about 10 seconds to capture the listener so your intro has to be captivating.
2. Melody now comes into play
3. Chorus has to have a hook for me. If I remember it, sign of a good song.
4. Beyond that singer has to be good. Even a great singer can make a crap song sound decent. I loved Queen but they had some dud songs for awhile. Freddie Mercury still made them sound good.